Chivalry Is Dead, And That’s A Good Thing
Recently, I’ve been obsessed with this idea of choice — or, rather, the pileup of a life of choices and what they amount to. A friend of mine has parents who are divorcing after forty years of marriage, a threadbare quilt of kindness and respect finally tearing, and he’s loath to place blame on either party. He mentioned his dad was the clear aggressor: the violent-tempered one, the name-caller, the asshole. He’s quick to point out that his mom made a lifetime of choices that allowed for all this. He wonders at what point her kindness became a weakness and when her compromises became drenched in resentment. Sacrifice is preached as the ultimate form of love — ever since Zombie Jesus came back from the dead for BRAAAAAIINNNS. Can’t that choice — that martyrdom — also create problems? Don’t “good” choices also make for bad results?
A few months ago, I took a girl to brunch after we had a casual hookup the night before, because brunch is the best and it’s weird to drink mimosas alone. A few weeks later, when it was clear that I wasn’t pursuing her, she was aghast that I would do something so noble and perfect as sharing brunch with her only to go on with my single life. The literal words she used to establish a case against me were, “But you took me to brunch.”
Now, I don’t believe she left the restaurant that day and called her parents about a wedding budget, but clearly she had established expectations. Perhaps she even thought, “Oh great, this guy’s already taking me to brunch — better dust off my stack of restraining orders,” but, nevertheless, she had a belief based on her experience and history. For my part, I left brunch wondering if I should have gotten the chicken and waffles.
It’s this issue with inputs and outputs — of choices made — that has me twisted up in knots. What was the “right” thing for me to do in that situation? In her eyes, clearly some sort of follow-up date was called for. What then? Another date? And another? I wasn’t interested, so I didn’t call. I did the “wrong” thing, at least in the annals of dating protocol, but it added up to the right result: we didn’t waste any more of each other’s time. This is a small example, but extrapolate it and start to wonder how much pain we all cause each other by trying to do the “right” thing — the chivalric thing. It’s as if we’re all at the front of a building, eternally fighting to hold the door for each other while no one just walks the fuck in.
On the TFM Podcast (start at the twenty-five minute mark) the other day, we answered an email from a virgin. He identified himself as someone who, as a brother to two sisters and the son of a military man, “respects women.” He wanted to know why he was always being told any girl would be “lucky to have him” by girls who didn’t want to be lucky to have him. There’s a lot he’s been told, I’m sure, about chivalry and the right way to treat a “lady,” but I wonder what he’s been taught about having self-respect and taking what he wants.
It would be nice to believe that any relationship — or beginning of a relationship — is all about laying down your jacket on rain puddles, but in truth, most girls don’t want that. It’s not because of the “girls date assholes” myth, but because they don’t want a fucking patsy. The reasons for that may vary, but the consequence is ultimately a good one: they end up with men who are equals. They take what they want, give when they need to, and have enough self-respect to believe they’re worthy of their mate.
I’d wager that’s the problem my podcast-emailing friend has run into: he sees himself as less than the women he pursues. These women, in turn, see in him a flash of a life without challenge, truth, fun, or worry. They see a life of small martyring, adding up to the day when the threadbare quilt of kindness and respect finally tears, because those things were given before they were ever earned. His “correct” choices would add up to emptiness..
Chivalry, rfm.
10 years ago at 11:33 amSo you are saying I should take what I want from women and that would be ok?
10 years ago at 11:39 amI think you genuinely missed the point of this article.
10 years ago at 12:09 pmOh yeah, because this is supposed to be satire right? I almost forgot what that word means being on this site for so long.
10 years ago at 2:55 pmHer- “But you took me to brunch.?.?”
10 years ago at 11:40 amMe – “No I took you to my bedroom, THEN to brunch..”
Wait a minute…
10 years ago at 3:50 pmFuck you both
10 years ago at 4:19 pmJesus Christ…
10 years ago at 2:25 amIf I had a dollar for every time a woman argued with “but you…” I wouldn’t be in college anymore.
10 years ago at 11:43 amYou’re still not over me, are you Jared?
10 years ago at 11:47 amActually, I broke up with Jared at brunch.
JTrain has Brunch Issues.
Fuck off, Kara
10 years ago at 11:58 amDefinitely should’ve gotten the chicken and waffles
10 years ago at 11:48 amTake her to Denny’s and finish her off with a Grand Slam
10 years ago at 11:51 amjtrain, I respectfully disagree. I still think it’s classy (and so do women) when you hold a door for a her, or open the car door, or even offer to help her with something that causes the guy to go out of his way. Chivalry might be dead on campus, but I find that women want to be fought for. They still want their guy to stand up for her when his friends ask him to go out with them for the third night that week. I wouldn’t lay my jacket down in a mud puddle for her, but I would open a door for her, offer to cook her breakfast and even say “no” to my friends if I really wanted to make that relationship last. I am probably in the minority here and I’ll take my laps if need be, but there’s no need to act like a neanderthal even if you know the relationship won’t last more than 24 hours.
10 years ago at 12:03 pmDo less
10 years ago at 12:06 pmThe brothers have decided… fuck you bear.
10 years ago at 6:53 pmThis guy right here has got his head screwed on straight – if all y’all have this mindset then you’ll have good luck with women. Bravo, USArmy. Sincerely, littlemisssratty
10 years ago at 12:10 pmHe wants the same thing the biggest asshole on here wants: to fuck you and then go along his way.
10 years ago at 12:19 pmNo. I’m telling it like it is. littlemisssratty validated my point that women like chivalry. It’s not complex. Women care about self image, both inside and out. If a guy is willing to fight for her, even if it’s just to bring her some hot food on a cold, snowing day so she doesn’t have to get out. You don’t have to go out and rent a limo or a carriage. Show up and stand up for her.
10 years ago at 12:34 pmIt’s not always easy being chivalrous and respecting girls that don’t respect themselves. You aren’t always as classy as you like to think you are. I’m a grntleman, but if you act like a slut I’m probably gonna treat you like one. Just saying.
10 years ago at 7:32 pmThis is it right here. You can’t blow 5 dudes in the same frat and then expect to be whisked off your feet by prince charming.
10 years ago at 11:03 pmSlut
10 years ago at 2:27 amChivalry is dead with all the fucking assholes that refuse to hold a door for anyone and wouldn’t touch a check. I was raised to respect ladies and always be a gentleman. Anybody who doesn’t hold a door or pick up a check is a against all things “frat” we’re gentlemen. Not holding a door for a lady or picking up the check. TGDIM
10 years ago at 1:11 pmI held the door open last night for my date and didn’t even consider letting her pay. This was after I realized she wasn’t the least bit interesting or attractive, it just seemed like the right thing to do.
10 years ago at 1:56 pmDamn, how’d you end up on that date?
10 years ago at 5:16 pmMet her blackout and exchanged numbers. She seemed much more attractive in the dark and much more fun dancing on me. Happens to the best of us.
10 years ago at 5:21 pmA Post night Facebook check is always a must before making a commitment like that.
10 years ago at 8:39 pmShe photographed well. Probably practiced her angles or whatever for years, that trickster.
10 years ago at 11:13 pmThat’s unfortunate. Now, I’m not sure what you look like but by the way things seem to have went down , she probably seemed boring because she was a little nervous. She probably knew that you knew that she doesn’t get asked out much because her face looks like a catcher’s mitt. With that being said, being gentlemanly and letting this thing run it’s course is a legit RFM and good on you for sticking it out. She’ll be better because of it.
10 years ago at 12:08 amI’ll probably end up texting her around 3am tonight because that’s just how things work. And that is why I’m still a borderline child.
10 years ago at 9:57 amWell done conducting yourself as a gentleman throughout regardless of the level of attractiveness of the woman involved. I applaud you sir.
10 years ago at 8:40 pminhocFAF, please get me some of what youre smoking
10 years ago at 9:30 amI think the right kind of woman still respects chivalry, when done tastefully. Obviously, going to the level of ruining your jacket so your date doesn’t get her feet wet is a little extreme. But little things like picking up the check, holding open doors, offering your coat, etc. are still appreciated and understood by girls who have their shit together and were raised right. At least that’s what I’ve learned in my experience.
10 years ago at 1:57 pmThat’s not what the article was about. Though, he could’ve done a better job for that case if he rebranded the title. Moral of the article was that chivalry by itself is not enough. Young men need to understand that respect is paramount but it takes more than just chivalry to get the girl you’re after.
10 years ago at 4:27 pmI would definitely agree with this. I think there is a not-so fine line between being a gentleman and assertive and being a pansy who never voices his needs and lets women walk all over them.
10 years ago at 8:43 pmWhile I will agree with you 150%on your points, I think Mr. Train is saying there is a fine line between being chivalrous and being Bitch Boy. By no means am I advocating not being chivalrous. However, many girls out there will see that window and bolt through it, takin a mile for a given inch. Too much kindness under the guise of chivalry breeds spoiling. If I’m in a relationship, I will bend over backwards for the others happiness, but ONLY if they are making just as much effort, that way any good for either side is completely earned. I think that’s what he was leading to.
10 years ago at 6:43 amI will always appreciate a gentleman. It’s not that I feel entitled to special treatment, but being fought for just feels good; and it’s not like I won’t return the favor. Any guy who opens the door for me, gives me his coat when I’m freezing, or brings me coffee when I’m binge-studying at 2 AM will be rewarded with things I legitimately enjoy doing for him – cooking him breakfast, good morning BJs, showing up to his fraternity’s rush event with food & dressed super hot, bringing him meds & soup when he’s sick. I like to think of it less as chivalry and more as being a good person and making whoever you’re dating, or fucking, happy.
10 years ago at 11:37 am“Can’t that choice — that martyrdom — also create problems? Don’t “good” choices also make for bad results?” Read this a solid 10 times wrapping my head around it. Continue to impress me every time, jtrain.
10 years ago at 12:05 pmGreat points, especially the argument that less chivalry means more equality. ” Traditional chivalry subjected women by making them “owe you something.” It’s kind of find its roots in the Medieval concept where the a girl was basically sold to the man as his a pseudo-sex slave and chivalry was a nice way of “paying her back,” like treating the poor girl nicely. Needless to say, I don’t think the erosion of that concept is synonymous with failure to proffer common courtesies or be a gentleman. Manners will always be manners; I hold the door open for my dates, my sisters, my friends, strangers, everyone not because I expect anything from them but because it makes me a civilized, socially-competent stud. Remembering names and details about people, buying a woman’s drinks etc. aren’t chivalry, it’s social awareness and darwinism because it makes you stand out and that’s what I think your friend is missing.”He wanted to know why he was always being told any girl would be “lucky to have him” by girls who didn’t want to be lucky to have him,” is too common a story (my own pre-fraternity days). I’ve seen too many nice guys who think their behavior should be called “respecting women” but what it really is is a set of cheap tricks any non-alpha neanderthal could (and do) do. Unfortunately for him, women are empowered and can seek out their own alpha and holding them to this expectation that they owe him something is arcane and only going to end in heartbreak. Be a man. Be kind and polite because you are kind and polite. There’s no rules in this game, no set formula (like chivalry) to get chicks because they’re not subject to our rules, it’s survival of the fittest.
10 years ago at 12:58 pmNevermind how do I delete this
10 years ago at 12:58 pmKill yourself. Its that easy.
10 years ago at 1:09 pmEasy there, tiger.
10 years ago at 2:04 pmDid you expect anybody to actually read all this?
10 years ago at 1:11 pmTL; DR
10 years ago at 2:54 pmI started reading it but fell asleep halfway through.
10 years ago at 7:20 pmYou’re out of your goddamn mind if you think I’m reading a single word
10 years ago at 12:15 amThought about it. Nah TL;DR
10 years ago at 2:27 amMaking a girl pay for her own meal on a date. NF
10 years ago at 1:27 pm